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An Interview with Angie Hensley, Ph.D., and Jaclyn Deilgat, Ph.D.

Angie Hensley, Ph.D.,聽is聽and Jaclyn Deilgat, Ph.D., are the new Co-Chairs of the聽counseling psychology department, which encompasses the聽Masters聽in Counseling Psychology program and聽the聽Psy.D. in Counseling Psychology with Emphasis in Depth Psychology聽program.聽I鈥檓聽delighted to speak with them about their work and the future of the programs.聽

Angela Wood:聽Thank you both so much for speaking with me, and聽congratulations聽on your new聽roles in the psychology department.聽Please tell us a little about your background and the path that led you to teaching at Pacifica.

Angie Hensley:聽Thank聽you, Angela. I began my career in women鈥檚 health聽at Planned Parenthood. I spent time working聽in聽an abortion聽clinic, as a sex educator, teen mom group facilitator, and clinical supervisor. I have been the clinical director of the transformational recovery program at Shakti Rising, a grassroots nonprofit, taught at Folsom Lake College, California State University, Chico, and Maryville College. My educational journey聽began at City College and culminated at the California Institute of Integral Studies, where I earned a聽master’s degree in counseling psychology聽and a PhD in Human Sexuality.聽Currently my聽work聽centers on supporting clinicians and other helping professionals as we tend to the collective suffering occurring on the planet聽at this聽time.聽Psychotherapists have such a huge job right now, and we all need to uplevel the knowledge, skills, and capacities to show up for our big work in the world.聽I felt a聽soul聽calling聽to step in to help lead the Counseling Psychology department at Pacifica.聽The institute鈥檚 mission is聽in alignment with my personal values.

Jaclyn Deilgat:聽Thank you so much for the聽congratulating聽on the new role in the department.聽What led me to teaching at Pacifica started at聽a young age聽where I began tutoring my peers in fourth grade. I realized聽that students who were struggling in class started to succeed when they had extra time dedicated to their learning聽and that they needed聽information conveyed in a way that made sense to them. Throughout my K-12聽schooling,聽I tutored a lot of students in different subjects and was also a notetaker for students who had ADA聽accommodations聽when I was in undergraduate studies at UCSB.聽I think this聽solidified my belief system that students could excel in courses if the right type of scaffolding聽was聽in place.聽Also,聽looking back at my school age years, my teachers were some of the most influential and inspiring people to me and in many聽respects聽I think they聽helped provide a felt sense of good enough attachment and have had a lasting imprint on my psyche.聽Obtaining聽my doctorate was聽incentivized by my desire to聽become a better practitioner and to enhance the likelihood of being able to聽teach future clinicians.聽A year after I graduated聽from the聽PhD in Clinical Psychology聽at聽Pacifica,聽I started adjunct teaching at Alliant聽International University,聽Reiss-Davis聽Graduate School, Antioch聽University,聽and Pacifica.聽After 5 years of adjunct teaching at these different educational facilities,聽I聽interviewed for a聽position as the director of research聽in聽Pacifica鈥檚聽Counseling PsyD program聽which evolved into a core faculty position, which聽was a longtime dream come true. I聽have聽always聽been a blend of聽practitioner and scholar/researcher聽so the work I get to do at Pacifica is聽the perfect聽balance to what I do clinically.

Angela:聽What vision do you both hold for the聽Masters聽in Counseling Psychology program and聽the聽 Psy.D.聽in Counseling Psychology with Emphasis in Depth Psychology program聽Are there any聽particular aspects聽that聽you鈥檙e聽excited about?

闯补肠濒测苍:听I really love this question and think聽it’s聽something that聽Angie聽and I have spent a good amount of our time together discussing and聽identifying聽what聽our visions are based upon the needs of our community. We have spent time carefully listening to staff, students, and faculty聽in our department聽to hear what they feel is needed聽at聽Pacifica. In considering all of this,聽first and foremost聽we recognize that we are聽in the process of training聽clinicians who will be tending to the souls of people聽who聽they聽encounter. This聽is something that is quite meaningful聽and also聽carries a significant degree of responsibility.聽I am quite excited about working with Angie to support all聽the lovely humans Pacifica attracts. Every time I am on either of the campuses, I am in wonder and awe of the people who are in this shared space.聽Angie聽and I聽participated聽in a聽really powerful聽ritual together聽when we were on campus this month聽where we asked聽what we wanted to invite into聽the space聽and the work聽we are doing. Some of the central themes that came up were聽that we wanted聽soulful community where there is liberation of all through restorative practices, self-reflexivity,聽active implementation of DEIB practices,聽integrity,聽unity,聽benevolence, mutual respect,聽empathy, justice, loyalty, eros, kindness, playfulness, humor, love, embodiment, coherence, wisdom, heart, soul,听补苍诲听most importantly,聽safety. There is a need to recognize the ways in which聽the field of counseling聽psychology has perpetuated marginalization and聽intentionally聽move towards聽efforts to聽decolonize psychotherapy聽and educational practices.

础苍驳颈别:听It has been so聽fun to work with Jaclyn and dream into the possibilities聽for the department.聽Our聽vision is to steward a soulful learning community grounded in principles of integrity, liberation, and interconnectedness. We want to hold academic rigor alongside beauty and imagination,聽to support聽the department in becoming a recognized leader in聽depth聽psychology听补苍诲听depth related research.聽We are holding monthly dream tending circles with the students in a space called 鈥楧ream Lab鈥櫬爐hat聽actually came聽from a dream I had right before my first day here. We want to apply everything we know about what brings soul forward in聽community. Dream work being one part of that.

Angela:聽What do you find to be unique and meaningful about Pacifica and the study of depth psychology? People who attend often say they feel聽it鈥檚聽a home and a sanctuary, which is certainly not how everyone feels about their alma mater elsewhere!

闯补肠濒测苍:听The聽first thought that comes to mind about what I find unique and meaningful about Pacifica and depth psychology is everything-the anima mundi.聽To聽get more specific,聽the way in which tending to the soul聽is at the core of depth psychology. I聽think of聽self-realization and聽the聽integration of all aspects of聽the individual聽is at the heart聽and soul聽of the work that we are doing. Presently,聽I think that we聽need to move towards聽placing society on the therapeutic couch听补苍诲听identifying聽the ways in which聽marginalized populations have been forced to suppress and repress who they are to fit into聽regressive, oppressive,聽colonial聽societal structures. In modern,聽Western psychological practices, with a shadow in colonialism,聽racism,聽discrimination,聽marginalization, oppression,聽and all types of isms, there is a strong need to examine the collective shadow of modern psychology and move towards a more liberated and socially just practice of psychology to truly tend to the souls聽of the world.聽I think Pacifica聽feels like home and sanctuary to聽a good amount of people and am eager to find a way to make it feel more聽like a sanctuary to all.聽I think聽there聽is聽some聽work that needs to be done to get there, and I find it inspiring, challenging, and something worth putting in the work to do it.聽I feel as though we are at a pivotal moment in time聽at Pacifica聽where we can move in聽a聽direction聽with other聽leaders in聽different聽programs聽and departments聽at聽Pacifica聽to have聽a collective movement聽towards restorative practices聽in our education offered here聽that will increase the felt sense of safety, and perhaps, in time, like Pacifica is a sanctuary for all. It is time that聽we examine the collective shadow and implement necessary reparations for the聽collective聽wounding that has occurred, globally, systemically,聽and in聽particular,聽in-depth聽philosophy,聽psychology,聽pedagogy聽and practice.

础苍驳别濒补:听Who聽is聽the聽Masters聽in Counseling Psychology program a good fit for and how would you characterize the students in the program as a whole?

础苍驳颈别:听This program attracts students interested in Depth Psychology, transformative learning, and personal reflexivity. We tend to draw interdisciplinary learners who are聽scholarly and聽academically serious,聽and at the same time drawn to the聽imaginal.聽This is a space for community-oriented聽learners,聽as our program is delivered in a cohort model.聽Our students tend to be聽forward-thinking,聽ingenuitive,听补苍诲听have聽heart.

Angela:聽Jaclyn, you serve as the Director of Research in the Counseling PsyD program at Pacifica.聽In this聽capacity聽how do you work with聽students聽and can you give us a sense of the breadth and depth of the kind of work our students are doing in their research?

闯补肠濒测苍:听Working with students in the dissertation聽process within the research sector is聽probably one聽of聽my聽favorite things I get to do聽at Pacifica.聽I really enjoy seeing the brilliant ideas our students have and聽assisting聽them in developing their ideas into what聽ultimately becomes聽a published work and a significant contribution to the field of counseling psychology,聽with an聽emphasis聽in聽depth. In recent years,聽a good amount of this focus has been on聽identifying聽ways to have methodologies that are more inclusive of marginalized populations given that聽main聽methodologies聽for examining human experiences聽in聽psychology聽are聽largely influenced聽by European and patriarchal聽belief聽systems.聽I’ve聽often found that the dissertation process is something that is intimidating to many and getting to sit with students in the first course that begins to build their finalized dissertation has been rewarding and inspiring.聽There are so many聽powerful聽dissertations that have been published,听补苍诲听others聽in the works, that it feels a bit limiting not to share what everyone has been working on.聽For a quick preview, here are some of the topics that students have聽recently聽investigated, or are聽in the process of investigating:

• Traumatic limb loss from a Gestalt therapy lens

• Religious cult defense mechanisms through object relations theoretical framework

• The rape of Persephone: an alchemical hermeneutic exploration of trauma and integration of schizoid psyche

• Decolonizing therapeutic practices to better meet the needs of the Filipino American diaspora

• Development of more effective interventions to support Iranian American immigrants

• Decolonizing behavior analytic theory and intervention:聽utilizing聽depth psychology, a critical analysis

• Examining how Eurocentric educational practices in mental health programs exclude marginalized populations from gaining access to the field

• Fostering a sense of belonging within the therapeutic relationship with bi+聽identified聽patients

• Invoking the soul of psychology: the use of neoplatonic ritual philosophy

• Treating veterans with PTSD from a depth psychological approach

• Healing through the expressive arts: acting and the treatment of trauma

• The ecology of grief

• Secret suicidality: why suicidal people do not tell

• Applying聽Koan聽as a depth psychological approach in clinical practice

• Michelangelo鈥檚 the four prisoners: an autoethnographic and alchemical hermeneutic analysis

• Therapeutic potential of TTRPGs for autistic women

Angela:聽Angie, when you are not teaching at Pacifica or in practice as a psychotherapist, you聽run Terre Madre Retreat in Tennessee, where you 鈥渇acilitate women鈥檚 ceremonies and rituals for personal, collective and planetary transformation & healing.鈥� Please tell us about the founding of the retreat and your approach to聽facilitating聽ceremony.

础苍驳颈别:听Terre Madre was founded with the intention of being a sacred space for people to develop a relationship with their聽body聽wisdom, dreams, one another, and the land. I have a deep belief that the only way we are going to turn things around at this time in our history is through soul, and that is what the space at Terre Madre is all about. We practice becoming fluent in Psyche鈥檚 language through embodied dream work, ritual, expressive arts, and connection with the land. My approach to聽facilitating聽ceremony is rooted in teachings passed down from spiritual mentors. It involves calling in, setting, and tending to a morphogenetic field that heals and transforms. Local women gather monthly on the full moon and once a season. In this way, we are following nature鈥檚 wisdom,聽containing聽personal and collective work within cycles of the moon and seasonal medicine.

础苍驳别濒补:听Jaclyn, you work as a license psychologist in聽San Diego, and聽provide聽services聽鈥渢o people who have severe psychiatric illness and substance use disorders in jails, psychiatric hospitals, and community mental health facilities.鈥澛燞ow has depth psychology informed your clinical practice聽in challenging settings like jails and psychiatric hospitals?

闯补肠濒测苍:听As I think about my work聽in聽psychiatric facilities and聽correctional facilities, other than people聽living on the streets, I cannot think of places in society with an ever more urgent and dire need for depth psychotherapeutic practices聽and soul tending. In these settings, I have seen the deepest soul suffering听补苍诲听unconscious forces聽that聽manifest聽as聽psychotic symptoms, deeply embedded defense mechanisms,聽extreme substance use,聽severely聽ruptured object relations,听补苍诲听maladaptive聽personality/character聽organization,聽all of which have a tense duality of protection and annihilation, of聽self聽and/or聽others. The collective shadow is quite聽active聽in these places with histories built on slavery, exploitation,聽eugenics, discrimination, marginalization,聽stigmatization, colonialism,聽and segregation. In these spaces I have聽found that patients and incarcerated persons have a significant need for depth psychotherapeutic intervention,聽as do聽many of the聽people who purported to protect, serve, and聽treat聽these individuals.聽Depth is both lively and deceased in these聽settings.聽While some of the early founders of depth practices commented on the manner with which聽dreams are the road to the unconscious, my experience has shown that active psychosis, pronounced defense mechanisms, severe addictions,聽volatile romantic relations,聽impaired ability to effectively relate, and be in relation, to others,聽and egregious behaviors are the highway to the unconscious.聽Depth has not only聽informed, but聽is聽embodied聽in聽how I show up in聽these聽spaces.聽I have seen that significant healing can occur聽when one shows up in聽a聽safe, empathic, and understanding fashion with an open mind and a curiosity to learn about what happened to people rather than trying to discover what is wrong with them. Further, I feel as though聽in accordance with聽some of the early analytic聽recommendations,聽that society聽should聽also be聽examined on聽the analytic couch聽if you will. These settings really make聽evident聽the need to examine the social influences that result in us displacing our fellow humans in settings that have an iatrogenic influence, or what Chen (2016) referred to as 鈥渋atrogenic trauma.鈥澛燩laces designed to聽rehabilitate聽and recover are filled with practices that isolate, marginalize, discriminate, stigmatize,听补苍诲听further聽oppress; the collective shadow needs tending in these spaces and depth聽practices聽are聽the pathway to healing.聽A number of聽quotes come to mind that people have shared with me in these settings, that will forever聽sit聽with me, influence my practice, and compel me to continue聽advocate聽for the need for聽depth, compassionate聽practices聽with these populations. One patient said, 鈥渨hen the virtuous stop fighting the good fight, evil wins and all hope is lost.鈥� Another shared, 鈥渢hey keep giving me the crap end of the stick and asking me why I stink.鈥� People who find themselves in these places often have a lifelong experience of traumatization,聽oppression, discrimination,聽ruptured attachment, abuse, societal alienation, and deep soul suffering.聽I think it聽is time that the聽virtuous聽show up so hope is not lost, and that we find ways to聽hand the crap end of the stick back聽to the oppressive societal forces and consider that maladjustment to a disordered society may be the聽most sane聽response.

Angela:聽Thank you both so much for your thoughts and time.聽I look forward to seeing the Counseling Psychology program continue to grow under your direction.

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